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Do dog breed bans work?

Pit bull fans point to bite stats; ban backers cite that maulings stopped

Peter Marcus, DDN Staff Writer

Tuesday, March 3, 2009

 


Despite killing at least 1,667 pit bulls since 2005, Denver city officials cannot say with certainty whether a ban on the breed has made the city safer.

But officials say there is no evidence to indicate that the ban is not working. Proponents of the ban point out that since it was re-enforced in 2005, there has not been any serious pit bull maulings.

There has actually not been a serious pit bull attack in Denver since the 1989 mauling of Rev. Wilbur Billingsley, who was left with more than 70 bites and two broken legs. Before that, there was the 1986 death of a 3-year-old boy.

But empirical data suggests that breed-specific legislation does not work. Several other Denver metro towns and cities — including Englewood and Lakewood — examined dog bite data and decided breed-specific legislation is not as effective as stricter aggressive and dangerous dog laws, which hold owners responsible for their pets.

Between 1995 and 2006, Denver had almost six times as many dog-related hospitalizations compared to Boulder, even though Denver’s population is less than twice that of Boulder. During that 12-year period, Denver experienced 273 dog-related hospitalizations, while Boulder experienced only 46, according to statistics provided by the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment. 

Boulder imposes no breed-specific legislation. 

In Denver, however, there has been a ban on pit bulls since 1989 following the mauling of Billingsley. The incident resulted in the City Council banning pit bulls from the city. In 2004, Gov. Bill Owens signed a bill prohibiting local municipalities from enacting breed-specific legislation. Denver challenged the statute and enforcement resumed in May 2005.

Since then, hundreds of pit bulls have been killed, though animal control officials do not know how many of the breed are still left in the city.


Watch out for Labradors!

What they do know, however, is that pit bulls do not lead the pack when it comes to bites in the Denver metro area. Labrador retrievers are the most likely dog to bite, at 13.3 percent, according to data provided by the Colorado Association of Animal Control Officers and released last week by the Coalition for Living Safely with Dogs.

Pit bulls follow, at 8.4 percent, which is then followed by German shepherds at 7.8 percent.

The likelihood of a dog to bite also has to do with the popularity of the breed. Labrador retrievers are an extremely popular breed. But Michaela DeGraw, spokeswoman for the Colorado Veterinary Medical Association, points out that labradors are biting more than pit bulls, and there’s no ban on labs.

“Are we going to ban labs just because they are at the top of the list?” asked DeGraw. “I think not.”

Karen Delise, founder and director of research for the National Canine Research Council, said breed-specific legislation does nothing to educate owners on their responsibilities for owning a dog. She said without that component, there is no way to keep dog bites down.

“I find it interesting that the only area, region, county or city in Colorado with a breed ban happens to be the only county with a higher than normal rate of dog bite hospitalizations,” she said. “The breed ban isn’t working, it’s not addressing education or irresponsible owners.”

Englewood Mayor Jim Woodward said his city decided against breed-specific legislation because the research he conducted indicated that banning pit bulls would not cut back on dog bites. Because Englewood wanted a component that involved educating and holding owners responsible for their actions, it decided last summer to beef-up its dangerous dog laws rather than impose a ban.

“I have not seen any proof that (breed-specific legislation) is the way to go,” said Woodward. “I think what we have come up with is much more progressive.”

The mayor added that in speaking with code enforcement officers, they find the stricter dangerous dog ordinance much more effective because it supplies them with additional tools to go after irresponsible owners, as well as educate the owners on their mistakes.


Are we safer?

Denver Animal Control Director Doug Kelley is unable to say with any certainty whether the ban on pit bulls has made Denver a safer city.

“It’s a hard question to answer,” Kelley told the Denver Daily News in a recent interview. “We have not had a severe mauling or fatality involving a pit bull since its gone into effect. But then again, we continue to get more pit bulls every year … it depends on how you define success.” 


Ban backer

Kori Nelson, a Denver assistant city attorney who lead the city’s fight to re-enact its ban on pit bulls in 2004, called pit bulls a unique breed with inherently dangerous characteristics.

He said the ban is working as evidenced by the fact that there has not been a serious attack since the ban was enacted.

“I don’t know anyone who argues that pit bull bans or restrictions are designed to prevent all dog bites,” he said. “It’s designed to prevent maulings and death attacks by pit bulls.”

Comparing pit bulls to grenades, Nelson said the purpose of banning the breed is to prevent unprovoked attacks.

“Once a grenade goes off, the damage is already done,” he said.


Hidden agenda?

The assistant city attorney also suggested a “secret hidden agenda” behind anti-BSL groups like the Coalition for Living Safely with Dogs and the Humane Society of the United States. Nelson pointed out that such groups rely on donations for their efforts, especially when the economy is down.

“It’s politically incorrect for them to admit the truth of this, which is that pit bulls are more dangerous,” said Nelson, who added that donations could come from anywhere, even including leaders of dog-fighting rings.

Meanwhile, the Denver health department said it is considering the recent dog bite statistics to perhaps in the future recommend a change in code.

“It’s too soon to tell what we’re going to do with that information, but we’re definitely taking it into consideration as to whether in the future we should be doing any modifications,” said health department spokeswoman Meghan Hughes.

Delise says the city should act quickly on policy changes if it is to hope for less dog attacks.

“Dogs are the property, for better or for worse, of their owners,” she said. “You can’t write a law that a dog is going to be able to read. You need to write laws that hold owners responsible for the behavior of their dogs and for them to have care and control of their dogs.”

 

Comments:
Jamesw2 @ 2009-03-03 06:58:36BSL does not work! it's been demonstrated that better and more effective methods of preventing dog bites and attacks exist. Kori Nelson, the Denver assistant city attorney must have altitude sickness for believing in antiquated rhetoric. Numbers don't lie. Foghornleghorn proved that and Denver needs an new math teacher. Kori Nelson needs to understand this isn't about dog fighting dog fighters don't train dogs to attack people they train them to attack other dogs. In the pit the handlers are in the pit with the dogs. No breed of dog is bred to attack people. Training and lack of training are the factors that lead to a dog that lead to an attack on people. Dogs can learn to attack humans by two ways through deliberate attack training ,like police dogs, and where you let the dog form it's own behavior based on what makes the dog happy. Owners need to be educated on how and why dogs behave the way they do. Denver will continue to have an elevated dog bite problem until thay address the educational issue of PREVENTION of dog bites
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myra @ 2009-03-03 07:00:20Denver (and Kory Nelson) couldn't care less about public safety - they have dug in their heels and refuse to admit they were wrong. The fact that Denver has a higher hospitalization rate for dog bite injuries than any other area in Colorado speaks volumes about the the "effectiveness" of their breed ban. Kory Nelson and Doug Kelly say there have been no severe mauling by Pit bulls in the city, yet they NEVER mention all the other people mauled by dogs in the city. I guess if you are mauled by a dog that is not a pit bull - your injuries don't count to Denver officials. How's that for public safety?
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Justice Morath @ 2009-03-03 11:14:26Kory Nelson is stating the logical fallacy of "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" meaning after this, therefore because of this". It is a common piece of rhetoric that is used often in politics and law. This is a blatant misleading statement to the public. He is implying that the ban works because there have been no Pit Bull type dog attacks since it was enacted. He is ignoring that the low rate of attacks may actually be because these attacks were rare to begin with. Many of the above statements also succumb to logical fallacies. Drug dealers, thugs and gangs also drive cars. Would you ban all cars based solely on the fact that a few are used for illicit activities? The above analogy would also ring well if you consider the amount of children mauled by vehicles daily. One must also remember that all dog attack statistics lack the information to be able to say with significance what breed of dog is more likely to attack. There is no "dog census" and no modeling that is able to say how many of one breed there is. This is why the article made a mistake by saying that Labs are more likely to attack and supporters of Pit Bull bans make the mistake of saying that Pit Bulls are more likely to attack. The statistics are not per capita, adjusting for population size of each breed. Labs and Pit Bulls have higher rates of bites because they are more popular breeds. And on a side note, it would seem odd to me that a seedy, underground "dog fighting lobby" would fund groups that also actively lobby for stricter animal cruelty and dog fighting laws.
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myra @ 2009-03-03 11:28:40To Justice Morath - Excellent post. To Luke Thomas - Sound like you need to up your medication - you have some serious anger issues directed at the wrong species in the human / dog relationship.
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Robert @ 2009-03-03 11:55:40Groups like the National Canine Research Council are DOG BREEDER FRONT GROUPS that make up propaganda, lies, and deception to try to protect and further the PROFITS of pit bull and other dog breeders.
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myra @ 2009-03-03 12:10:42Robert, please cite the source for your claim that the National Canine Research Council is a "Dog Breeder Front Group" - Do you realize that when you make these claims you immediately identify yourself as a "nut case." You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Such nonsense.
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myra @ 2009-03-03 12:16:47To Robert - This fight is not about the money - it's about taking beloved family members (i.e., pit bulls or dogs that look like pit bulls) from law-abiding citizens. NO government should have the right to take an innocent and beloved pet from me!
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Justice Morath @ 2009-03-03 12:22:00"For example, there are far fewer pit bulls than labs..." In my previous post, I mentioned the fact that no one knows how many Pit Bulls and Labs exist. The article also alluded to this. "No matter what, the pit bull business lobby will cook up fake statistics to try to "prove" that breed specific legislation doesn't work. Problem is that it DOES." Again, you are making a statement that it is working but not supplying us with any supporting information or references. You also assert that these action groups are in it for the money but you have nothing to support these claims. Nothing but empty rhetoric. If you wish to have an intelligent, coherent discussion about this public policy issue, please return with supporting evidence.
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Robert @ 2009-03-03 12:24:24And pit bull euthanizations are MUCH HIGHER in cities with no or few pit bull regulations! Denver's is quite low, thanks in part to the ban.
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Robert @ 2009-03-03 12:28:29Stop Killing Pets, why are you and your friends involved with the American Dog Breeder Association (the ADBA) The American Dog Breeder Association is a PIT BULL BREEDER FRONT GROUP, and some of its members have produced videos of their pit bulls involved in dog fighting. The ADBA is now involved with the No Kill movement sold by the discredited Nathan Winograd and Best Friends, in their pursuit of income. (and no, I am not Kory Nelson, but I am a former dog breeder who knows how breeders lobby, and who exactly is doing it)
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StopKillingPets @ 2009-03-03 12:36:24I didn`t say you were Kory. Rest assured,Kory is reading the comments. I just think you should get his opinion on whether you`re crossing the line.
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Brent @ 2009-03-03 13:23:07Luke. You sort of missed the point. After 18 years of having a ban, and 4 recent years of new enforcement, Denver STILL can't produce evidence that the ban is actually improving public safety. In fact, they are having hospitalization due to dog bites at more than 3x the rate per capita than Boulder, which doesn't have a breed ban. Your own county, Miami Dade, has a 23% higher dog bite per capita rate than next door Broward County -- in spite of having a breed ban that Broward does not have. The point it, is you want to improve public safety, you MUST focus on ownership issues that lead to dog bites and attacks. Breed of dog is irrelevant. And Kory Nelson's defense that the veterinarians and animal control officers are a front group for dog fighters would be laughable, if it wasn't such an outright lie -- and endangering the citizens of Denver.
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Brent @ 2009-03-03 14:06:31Luke, there is little evidence that dog fighting is actually increasing. If you have such evidence, I'd love to see it. If your goal is to stop dog fighting (felony), drugs (felony), gangs (felony), and Crack houses (Felony), do you really think that a misdemeanor dog law, enforced by people who may or may not even have the authority to carry guns, is going to be the solution that will solve the problem? You need SWAT teams to deal with what you're talking about - not dog laws. If they're already breaking multiple felony laws, the dog law isn't stopping them.
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Brent @ 2009-03-03 14:08:17Meanwhile, I should note, with all of that stuff going on, and pit bulls being (not by their choice) in the middle of it, they're STILL not the heaviest biters in the study, and barely above German Shepherds (which they outnumber).
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Sue @ 2009-03-03 14:56:34It is not the breed, it is the owners and or trainers. Also, Labs have the most bites because there are so many of them. I am guessing 2-4x's the other breeds. Of course their numbers will be higher. Banning specific Breeds is encouraging ignorance.
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Sue @ 2009-03-03 14:56:53It is not the breed, it is the owners and or trainers. Also, Labs have the most bites because there are so many of them. I am guessing 2-4x's the other breeds. Of course their numbers will be higher. Banning specific Breeds is encouraging ignorance.
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Sue @ 2009-03-03 14:57:45It is not the breed, it is the owners and or trainers. Also, Labs have the most bites because there are so many of them. I am guessing 2-4x's the other breeds. Of course their numbers will be higher. Banning specific Breeds is encouraging ignorance.
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Aaron @ 2009-03-03 15:14:55Kudos to Mr. Marcus for bringing back an issue that has much public interest (as you can tell by all the postings). The statistics presented seem a bit short-scoped. What about national stats regarding how many hospitalizations have been due to each breed? Even more, what defines "hospitalization"? If it includes getting a bandaid at the ER for a cut from a dog's nails, we need to keep a better perspective. A more appropriate stat may be how many deaths have been caused in dog attacks, and by which breeds. I think the state-level stats are too small of a sample of the population, so lets use population stats instead.
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Brent @ 2009-03-03 15:38:51Aaron, If you go to the Coalition for Living Safely wiht Dogs webpage, you can see that they actually did do a scale of bites on a continuum. Most bites were quite minor in nature, with only 13 being classified as "maulings". No breed was responsible for more than 2 "maulings'. The problem with using fatality numbers is that they are quite rare in occurrance -- so they tend to not be a very good representive sample. Besides, often the differnce between a "mauling" and a "fatality" is whether the dog catches a major artery or not. I've heard of some attacks that really weren't all that severe, but really unlucky locations for the bite, while others that were more severe don't end in deaths. It really is, literally, hit or miss. I agree that I would love for more studies to be done in this area (to date, there are some, and they all have reached fairly close to the same conclusions), but if you've ever tried to gather dog bite information you would know how nearly impossible it is to gather the data because it is hard to get, is often innaccurate, and most places don't keep the same level of data -- making it almost impossible to work with.
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Patty @ 2009-03-03 16:21:51Is it even possible that Kory Nelson believes his own hideous statements when he infers that dog fighting rings are donating to HSUS and other similar groups? Why on earth would a dog fighter give money to HSUS when HSUS has done more to combat staged animal fighting and more to put anti-dog fighting laws on the books than any other organization in existence?? One HSUS employee alone (Eric Sakach) is responsible for helping to secure the arrests of more than 500 individuals involved in illegal animal fights. Yeah, Kory, the pit fighters are going to make sure to donate to HSUS to ensure their own arrest and prosecution!! I'm not scared of pit bulls. I am, however, scared of people in Kory Nelson's position who behave as recklessly as he does.
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Living Safely WIth Dogs @ 2009-03-03 16:33:39In response to assistant city attorney Kory Nelson’s accusations: We are disappointed that Mr. Nelson did not check his facts before advancing such specious accusations. The Coalition for Living Safely with Dogs is a group of Colorado animal health, care, and control professionals who have volunteered to offer assistance to municipalities striving to create and enforce comprehensive dangerous dog laws. The Coalition also aims to educate dog owners and the general public on how to live safely with dogs. CLSD is purely a volunteer organization that does not solicit, receive or operate on donations. The dog bite data report was analyzed by Corona Research, Inc., an independent data analysis firm, through a grant provided by the Animal Assistance Foundation. Please visit www.livingsafelywithdogs.org for more information.
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StopKillingPets @ 2009-03-03 16:47:50Was Kory Nelson speaking on behalf of the city or on behalf of Kory Nelson? His comments are bizarre regardless, but much more worrisome if he was speaking on behalf of Denver. Perhaps it`s time for Kory to be replaced if he was speaking on behalf of the City.
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Rebel @ 2009-03-03 16:56:55Denver's pit bull ban also protects Denver from a meteor crash. After all none has happened since the ban was enacted.
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Rebel @ 2009-03-03 16:59:01Luke Thomas appears to be OBSESSED with spreading the word about the evils of pit bulls. And citing this: Of all times the New York Police Department officers ever shot a gun-75% of the time-was to kill an attacking pit bull. It's a shame there's no citation to back up that audacious claim.
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Parent @ 2009-03-03 17:54:11It`s very disheartening to see this intense focus on victims of certain dogs and on the grief of those families. What about the rest of us? Don`t we matter?
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Parent @ 2009-03-03 18:04:33Do we have to start a website or make videos blaming dogs?
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Parent @ 2009-03-03 18:09:06I guess we don`t.
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Parent @ 2009-03-03 18:23:10Matter that is. I can assure you Luke. Our pain is just as bad. Our grief is just as deep. We shed the same tears. We feel we can`t go on. But people like you and the people behind dogsbite add to our pain and our grief. We would like to ask you to stop adding to our pain.
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EmilyS @ 2009-03-03 19:51:07I dunno, I really love Ass City Attorny Nelson's notion that HSUS (whose primary agenda is to ARREST dogfighters and kill their dogs) is somehow in the pocket of dogfighters. Though this is the same man who thinks dogbite.org is credible. Amazing that the citizens of Denver have to pay this moron a salary
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EmilyS @ 2009-03-03 19:51:21I dunno, I really love Ass City Attorny Nelson's notion that HSUS (whose primary agenda is to ARREST dogfighters and kill their dogs) is somehow in the pocket of dogfighters. Though this is the same man who thinks dogbite.org is credible. Amazing that the citizens of Denver have to pay this moron a salary
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Luke Thomas @ 2009-03-03 22:56:55Be honest-all you care about are those stupid pit bull dogs. Even after HUNDREDS of news clips how pit bulls KILLED-MURDERD-even ATE children..ohh poor dog. It's those friggin dogs that did the murder and mauling-even EATING children. All I hear is poor dogs..poor dogs. You all are SICK PATHETIC people!!! Hello-a CHILD was murdered or eaten. Or arm tore off. DOes that mean ANYTHING to you pit bull zealots. Does it?? My GOD!!!
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Justice Morath @ 2009-03-04 07:20:08Giving you the benefit of the doubt, supposed there actually was hundreds of Pit bull related deaths. There is probably millions of Pit Bull type dogs in the U.S. If say, there was one hundred Pit Bulls that killed someone and one million Pit Bulls in this little epidemic that would put the probability of any one Pit Bull being a murderer at .00001%. But since there has been less Pit Bull related deaths than that and probably even more Pit Bull type dogs in existence, this chance gets even lower. I wouldn't take these odds to Vegas, that's for sure. Did you know that it's an empirical fact that as ice cream sales go up, human violent crime rates also go up? Correlation does not illicit causation. There is a confounding variable, namely, high temperatures; which causes violent crimes and ice cream sales to rise. Shall I start a political action group to ban ice cream? In the Pit Bull controversy there are multiple confounds. On this dogsbite website it even states that dogs that are tethered, unneutered, and male are more likely to attack. These all have scientific evidence to back them. By circumstance many of these are also Pit Bull type dogs. P.S. You are consistently using the ad hominum abusive and ad hominum circumstantial logical fallacies. And using If you want to have an intelligent, coherent discussion about this, please refrain from the name calling.
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Debby @ 2009-03-04 08:24:10Luke Thomas, I'm sorry, but I'm sitting here giggling, I can hear the unwarranted fear in your words. You really need to calm down dude you'll give yourself a heart attack. And really pit bulls eating children? I think you've gone a bit over the edge there. First of all you will find more articles on pit bull related attacks because that is all the media prints. Also, most of the time the media prints its a pit bull and there is some sort of lab/boxer/bull dogt/mix sitting there. Its all media hype and fear mongering these days. Pit Bulls can be trained to kill OTHER DOGS not humans. Banning a breed does not stop dog attacks. And the whole idea is to stop ALL dog attacks. What needs to be done is to stop the fear mongering and hype from the media. The reporters need to get their facts straight, before its printed and to tell the truth not to sell papers. Our public officials need to stop wearing the blinders that they have put on and realize that any dog can bite. And the way to stop dogs biting, mauling killing is to punish the owner.
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Parent @ 2009-03-04 09:03:11[quote]I can assure you Luke. Our pain is just as bad. Our grief is just as deep. We shed the same tears. We feel we can`t go on. But people like you and the people behind dogsbite add to our pain and our grief. We would like to ask you to stop adding to our pain.[/quote] Thank you for your compassion and understanding Luke.
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ICanDoRealResearch @ 2009-03-04 13:34:56I also am sorry "Parent" on behalf of Luke and the website you mentioned. You can see what we are up against as we fight to ensure that you are treated equally and that we have fair,working,,enforceable laws that protect all citizens not just some citizens.
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kcdogblog @ 2009-03-04 14:05:56Luke, You have posted a lot of media stories. At the end of the day, none of them prove, or even imply, that banning or restricting certain breeds of dogs is an EFFECTIVE solution to decreasing the number of dog bites n communities. That's actually what most people would advocate for is actually decreasing the number of bites and attacks in communities. The only cities that have successfully done this are ones that have focused 100% of their efforts on educating dog owners of the reasons why dogs bite or attack -- and then punishing severely the people who are habitual offenders of carelessly owning dogs (regardless of breed). What we're focusing on here is a proven track record for successfully miniminzing dog bites and attacks...and Breed Specific laws have never shown themselves to play a role in that.
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kcdogblog @ 2009-03-04 15:13:20So, let me put this another way. No doubt that there are pit bulls that bite and attack people. Just like there are Akitas, Chows, German Shepherds, Labs, Dobermans, etc that bite and attack people. Behind the vast majority of these instances, regardless of the breed involved, is some owner that completely failed the dog -- by either leaving it chained up as its sole form of containment, let it run free regularly, was training the dog to be a guard dog, left it completely unsocialized, or allowed their 2 year old kid to play with the dog that was 3x its size with no supervision. You can create a breed ban (or restricitions if you will), but you've still not done ANYTHING to solve the actual problem, which was an ignorant, careless, neglectful or purposefully rotten owner. Until we really sit down and talk about what really causes dogs to bite (which is what the original story here is trying to do), we will continue to have a lot of ignorant, careless and neglectful owners. Changing what breed of dog they happen to own will not change that -- or the outcome. We MUST begin making the conversation about responsible dog ownership. When we do that, we will make process toward solving the problem. Acting as if "breed" is the problem only furthers the ignorance.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-05 06:26:42These numbers prove that pit bull bans "work" by protecting pit bulls from the people who own them and (too frequently) abuse them. It sounds horrible to read that 1667 pit bulls have been killed in Denver since 2005. That is about one per day. But contrast that with Los Angeles where Delise says about 120 pit bulls are killed PER DAY, simply because they are unwanted and irresponsibly bred. Admittedly, Los Angeles is a bigger city than Denver, but it isn't 120 times bigger. That said, I don't support bans, because they occasionally DO mean a result nobody should want: A beloved family pet being killed. A much better way to address the problem of irresponsible pit bull breeding is to require the microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes and the spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs. Everybody wins with this kind of breed specific legislation ans it protects both communities and pit bulls themselves.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-05 06:37:29There is no doubt that pit bulls lead the way in terms of dog bite related fatalities. Delise documented 92 pit bull type fatalities between 1965 and 2001 and only 9 retrievers (all types, goldens, labs, chessies, curlies, etc.) This is all the more remarkable because labs were (and are) the most popular breed of dog in the country for much of that time and goldens are also extremely popular. Since 2001, the number of pit bull dog bite related fatalities has (tragically) rocketed through the roof. Having said that, the evidence is much more murky when it comes to garden variety bites as opposed to fatal and serious maulings (where pit bulls do lead the pack). Nobody can say with certainty whether a chow is more likely to bite and cause injury than is a pit bull. (I suspect that it is, myself, but that is just based on knowing some chows and some pit bulls). We know that they are less likely to KILL than pit bulls, but they might be more likely to bite. Comparing only two cities doesn't really cut it in terms of figuring out if breed bans "work." I suspect that "perfect city" highly affluent Boulder has a very high percentage of LESS dangerous than average dog breeds, (goldens and labs) compared to other cities it's size. . In fact, Denver's overall dog bite numbers are on the low side, compared to many similar cities of its size. .
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-05 06:49:31One of the biggest reasons dogs attack and bite is that they were bred by people who bred for that trait. BREED is a big predictor of dog dangerousness. (See "Which Dogs Bite--a case control study" by Gershman, Sacks, et al.) Pit bullls, alas for them, were bred for a genetic propensity to race across a pit, attack another dog without any provocation whatsoever and keep on attacking until the other dog is dead. They are still frequently bred to do this. This is a big part of why MOST pit bulls are dog aggressive, according the the UKC American Pit Bull Terrier standard. This is not the fault of the dogs. It is the fault of evil people who breed for dog aggression or (at least) don't recognize it as a temperament flaw. . Most pit bull breeders are entirely irresponsible and way too many of them are breeding FOR dangerousness (either to other dogs or to people). They market the puppies they breed to people who want weapons, not companions. Regulating irresponsible pit bull breeders will not only prevent dog attacks, it will alleviate a HUGE amount of pit bull suffering. The fact that so many pit bull "advocates" (who are actually mostly pit bull users) are against breed specific laws (mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes, mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) that will absolutely HELP pit bulls is a good clue that their priority is not protecting either the community or the dogs. It is about protecting irresponsible pit bull breeders. . .
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myra @ 2009-03-05 17:48:40cygnett - get your facts straight - Los Angeles COUNTY has 10 shelters - not ONE like Denver. The number you are quoting is for 10 Los Angeles shelters. Copy and paste - ah, the hallmark of another internet expert !
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-05 18:26:20Hey, kcdogs, the figure of 120 pit bulls per day dying isn't MY figure, it is Karen Delise's. But, to clarify, she says that number is from LA area shelters, not a single shelter. Missouri Pit Bull Rescue puts the number of pit bulls killed daily in Los Angeles at 200 per day, but I went with the more conservative estimate from (pit bull advocate) Delise. And, of course, it is very reasonable to assume that far more than 50% of the dogs killed at nearly any urban shelter are likely to be pit bulls and pit bull mixes. In NYC (according to pit bull friendly NYC ASPCA) pit bulls comprise 80% of the dogs killed. (Nope, you can't blame that one on breed specific legislation---the fault lies squarely on the pit bull community that keeps breeding and dumping pit bulls and fighting any effort to stop the carnage). At Baltimore Area Rescue and Care (BARC) the ONLY dogs being killed these days are pit bulls.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-05 18:38:59One great benefit of the breed specific law I propose (mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls, mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) IS that it would make it easy and cheap to put all dog fighters out of the pit bull breeding business. Yes, dog fighting is illegal now. However, it is a VERY hard case to make, because (even though dog fighters tend to be very stupid) they aren't quite stupid enough to advertise that they are committing a felony. All their websites say "no dog sold or bred for any illegal purpose." Of course they don't say exactly what purpose all those pit bulls from famous dog fighting lines ARE being bred for. Use your imagination. They don't print invitations to dog fights. In order to make a bust, law enforcement needs somebody undercove for, literally, years, to gain the trust of dog fighters and to be in their circle. Few rural law enforcement agencies can afford this. And even after the dog fighter is caught (maybe he is really stupid, like Ed Faron, and makes admissions to undercover agents) , the trouble is just beginning. The dogs have to be seized and held, in highly secure facilities (remember, these dogs are very desirable to a certain class of felons), and in individual runs for months or years, while the defendant is awaiting trial. In all, the costs to the budgets of financially strapped law enforcement agencies are likely to be enormous. And a fairly high percentage of taxpayers are going to be asking "all that money spent on DOGS?" Contrast that with the simplicity of making a case against the same owner if there is a law in place that requires pit bulls to be spayed/neutered. It wouldn't be a felony to have an intact pit bull, so the stakes would go way down. Responsible owner spays his dog and gets his dog back. Irresponsible owner dumps his dog and goes on his way with a fine. Either way, the pit bulls (and the community) win.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-05 18:47:22In San Francisco they had an increase in REPORTED dog bites after the huge amount of publicity surrounding the implementation of a pit bull breeding ban. This is not surprising, because the ban itself was triggered by a fatal attack on a 12 year old boy by his family's pit bulls. The discussion following the implementation of the law to address this problem likely made a lot of people aware of the need to report even minor dog bites. Hence, it is not surprising that dog bite reports went up. Most of what Animal Control does on a particular day has little to nothing to do with stopping dog bites, but you might be right that a tiny portion of the increase in reported bites comes from animal control implementing the new law. Any new law will take some resources to implement. And the BENEFITS of the new law in terms of the reduction in dog dangerousness wouldn't even BEGIN to until several years into implementation, because pit bull puppies are not typically the dogs responsible for serious and fatal maulings. That is typically mature, adult pit bulls. So the reduction in the number of pit bulls being born now should result in a reduction in injuries from pit bull attacks in about two years. Of course, pit bulls dumped at shelters are often not mature dogs, but rather typically are adolescents. So you would expect to see a much faster reduction in the numbers of pit bulls being euthanized in San Francisco as a result of the law and happily, the numbers of pit bulls dying in shelters has been DRASTICALLY reduced. This is a great win for pit bulls (and pit bulls are a breed that can use some good news).
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Cygnet @ 2009-03-05 19:29:27The idea that you're going to catch dog fighters wit a mandatory spay and neuter law is ridculous. So, these folks have already proven they're willing to break felony laws (dog fighting). They certainly aren't going to follow this law. And you don't go after dog fighters with animal control officers. You go after them with SWAT teams. The idea that an animal control officer, who may or may not be allowed to even carry a gun, is going to go into a dog fighting operation and bust them for their dogs not being altered is really, truly, crazy. The reason dog fighting is so hard to catch is because it's illegal and done underground -- and it hasn't been a priority for people to stop it. If we make it a priority, it will be relatively easy to solve - -but with police and SWAT teams, not animal control officers. Nope, all the mandatory spay/neuter thing does is tie up resources that SHOULD be used to deal with stray/off-leash dogs and aggressive dogs...
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Brent @ 2009-03-05 19:30:18Sorry, that post at 19:29:27 is me -- addressed to cygnet
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Brent @ 2009-03-05 19:36:08I always chuckle about you and San Francisco, because just like everyone said, resouces got diverted, so bites went up -- but you don't want to believe it. So let's look at two other areas... In Kansas City, they passed a similar ordinance -- and because animal control was using it as an excuse to confiscate animals that weren't in compliance, they had an 80% increase in pit bulls euthanazied in the 2 years following the passing of the ordinance. In Sandusky, OH, they quit enforcing their BSL during the Toledo vs Tellings case because they feared it was unconsitutional. In the 3 years that they weren't enforcing their ordinance, they had a 15-20% decrease in bites (depending on the year) in the city -- because animal control officers were busy checking "dangeorus" dogs and not dealing with pit bulls that weren't dangerous. Their bite stats were counted by the department of health, so not a reporting bias. Even though there are cases out there where people have done what you propose, there isn't one single example of it actually working without either an increase in bites or an increase in euthanasia. And yet, without any evidence that it works, you still stick to your guns that it is the answer...
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-06 02:56:49Actually, Brent, I said that maybe a small portion of the increase in reported dog bites in San Francisco IS due to the fact that "resources got diverted" as the new law was first implemented. However, since only a tiny portion of what animal control does in any city has anything to do with actually preventing (as opposed to responding to) dog attacks, it makes no sense to think that there would be much of an increase for this reason. And, since we KNOW that pit bulls attack seriously and kill in disproportionate numbers, the math dictates that fewer pit bulls overall (especially if the decrease is due to fewer irresponsibly bred pit bulls, which it would be under my proposal) means fewer dog bites and attacks. I am always amused at people who say "mandatory spay/neuter doesn't work." OF COURSE it "works." Spaying and neutering works 100% to prevent that dog from reproducing. Every pit bull spayed/neutered will not thereafter produce a litter (or eight) of puppies. Guaranteed.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-06 03:03:36Re Kansas City, if a city has already let the pit bull crisis get ouf of control and therefore has huge numbers of completely irresponsibly owned pit bulls, yes, pit bull euthanasia rates could theoretically spike temporarily following the implemention of the law I propose. But, Brent, tell us EXACTLY why any pit bull would be seized by animal control under this law. (Mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes, mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs). It would have to be a pit bull whose owner literally didn't want it unless s/he could make money with it breeding pit bulls irresponsibly, right? Are you suggesting that such people should be allowed to KEEP their pit bulls to breed? How is that good for pit bulls or for the community?
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-06 03:12:11Brent, Where, exactly, has a city passed the law I propose? (Mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls, mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) . There is always a reporting bias when it comes to dog bites, except with fatalities. (Fatalities are pretty much reported 100%) . It is particularly true that there is a reporting bias re bites from pit bulls when breed speciific legislation addressing the pit bull crisis is contemplated, passed or being discussed. Loyal pit bull owners often discuss how they lie about how a particular injury was sustained to "protect the breed" from the repercussions of one more pit bull bite. Moreover, if there is discussion of breed specific legislation, pit bull owners are particularly aware of the fact that their dog may be in danger if a bite is reported.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-06 03:27:11Re dog fighters being "willing to break felony laws," the deterrent effect of any criminal law depends on two things: The severity of the punishment and the likelihood of being caught. With dog fighting, the punishment is very severe, but the likelihood of being caught and successfully prosecuted is incredibly low. There are huge barriers (discussed above) to successful apprehension and prosecution of dog fighters. If dog fighters had a high chance of being caught and prosecuted, nobody would be a dog fighter, even if the penalties involved were much less severe. One of the great effects of the law I propose is that it would make it EASY to put the irresponsible pit bull breeder that everybody knows, (but nobody can prove) is a dog fighter out of the pit bull breeding business without ever having to prove he is a dog fighter. Of course, not all irresponsible pit bull breeders are outright criminals, so many of them would follow the law (and stop breeding pit bulls) just because it IS the law. That is a huge plus for pit bulls, too. But the idea that the only reason we pass criminal laws is if criminals are going to voluntarily choose to follow them is also a curious one. If people voluntarily choose to do the right thing, we don't NEED to pass laws. We pass criminal laws to give society a mechanism to FORCE people who otherwise would choose to hurt others to stop hurting others.
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StopKillingPets @ 2009-03-06 12:23:20[quote]We pass criminal laws to give society a mechanism to FORCE people who otherwise would choose to hurt others to stop hurting others.[/quote] I guess those laws are why we have no crime. Well that was easy,everyone at ease. cygnet is currently appearing ALL over the Internet singing the same old tune. Don`t worry if you miss the entire performance here as it is endlessly replayed.
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Brent @ 2009-03-06 14:58:24"since only a tiny portion of what animal control does in any city has anything to do with actually preventing (as opposed to responding to) dog attacks, it makes no sense to think that there would be much of an increase for this reason". Ahhh, and you've finally hit on the problem. Animal control departments in virtually every city in the nation are understaffed and under-funded. And every time we make a law, we further dilute the understaffed/underfunded nature of animal control. In an ideal world, ACOs would spend all of their time responding to cruelty/neglect cases. stray/off-leash dogs and dogs that are called in as having shown aggressive behavior. This would be preventative work. Nope, instead, we want them making calls to check to see if the neighbor's pit bull (which may or may not really be a pit bull) is altered, or microchipped. Most cities have said that the large percentage of their 'pit bull' calls end up not being pit bulls at all (most people have no idea what one actually looks like), so now they've shown up to check out the neighbor's Boxer for no reason at all. How is that helping? Nope, the way to make animal control work to be preventative is to focus 100% of the efforts on problem dogs. The more laws you create, the fewer of all of them can actually get enforced. How exactly would you expect to enforce the microchipping law? Do you want them to scan every dog? Prove it is microchipped when licensed (bear in mind, licensing in most cities is already below 20%)? It will be impossible to enforce, and tie up resources that should be used for preventative measures.
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Brent @ 2009-03-06 15:09:15"since we KNOW that pit bulls attack seriously and kill in disproportionate numbers, the math dictates that fewer pit bulls overall (especially if the decrease is due to fewer irresponsibly bred pit bulls, which it would be under my proposal) means fewer dog bites and attacks" The fatalities are probably a known sum -- but really, do we know about "other" attacks? Did you read the article you're posting under? And even if your statement is right, your logic is failed and the evidence has shown this. If a pit bull is attacking because it has lived its entire life chained and unsocialized in a back yard, or it has been used as a guard dog and ended up finding a child, or if it attacked because someone left their 2 year old in the back yard alone with the dog unsupervised, what difference does it make what type of dog those people own? Do we think it will be beter if these people partake in the same activities but own German Shepherds, Dobermans, Rottweilers, Akitas, St. Bernards, etc? It wouldn't. Because the thing that causes the attacks are not the breeds of dogs, but the way people keep, train and maintain them. This is why the UK, which undoubtedly has fewer American Pit Bull Terriers than it did 15 years ago when they passed their ban has had a 50% increase in dog bites over the past decade. This is why Council Bluffs banned pit bulls in 2005, and has made their number of pit bull attacks go down to 0, but has not seen a net decrease in total dog bites and attacks (they have just changed the breeds involved). This is why Denver isn't seeing a decrease in dog bites, or Miami Dade County, or any place else on record that has enacted a ban on pit bulls. Because at some point, you're going to have to deal with the irresponsible way many people own pets that has caused the problem in the first place. It truly is the only way to solve the problem.
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Brent @ 2009-03-06 15:18:48" It would have to be a pit bull whose owner literally didn't want it unless s/he could make money with it breeding pit bulls irresponsibly, right? Are you suggesting that such people should be allowed to KEEP their pit bulls to breed? How is that good for pit bulls or for the community? " We don't live in an "ideal" society. There are a lot of people that don't have the same values when it comes to dogs. So let's take the KC scenerio. A guy in Kansas City owns a pit bull. And he loves his dog, but he's a tough guy in the inner city and he wants his dog's manhood to show. We decide with an MSN law, that he must, but he doesn't comply. Because he doesn't comply, we confiscate his dog - -the dog ends up in the shelter -- and 5 days later is dead because the shelter is to crowded. The dude is bummed about his dog, but hits up his buddy down the street for a puppy from his litter and he gets himself another dog. And the cycle repeats itself. So now, we're killing more dogs because we're taking them out of homes -- AND, we have the added bonus of increasing the demand for illegally bred dogs (and we still don't have enough law enforcement to enforce this). So what have we solved? And this cycle has been repeated in nearly every city across the country that has tried any type of MSN. Meanwhile, take the other approach -- which is what Bad Rap has done so successfully in Oakland and Berkeley. Nearly the entire state of New Jersey and New Hampshire are no kill at this point using this approach. Do outreach programs that supply low-cost (or no cost) spay/neuter programs in "high risk" areas. Encourage people to alter their dogs. Offer them free vaccinations. Be a service to their community. Earn their trust. Educate. You won't reach everyone. But you'll reach the majority of the people. Some of the others will go on their merry way doing what they do -- but in such small numbers that your shelter can handle the problem. This has been successful in places like New Jersey -- and Reno, NV, and Oakland, and Berkeley. Why would we purposefully ignore the programs that have worked, in favor of implementing programs that have proven themselves NOT to work? It just isn't rational.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-07 03:20:43Brent, uh, no, we don't pass criminal laws with the expectation that they will entirely eliminate crime. We pass criminal laws with the understanding that there are times when people will not choose to do the right thing simply because it is the right thing. One of the best reasons for governments to pass laws, in my view, is to protect the powerless from the more powerful. In this case, both pit bulls and their victims are powerless to protect themselves. Irresponisble breeders of pit bulls will NOT stop the irrsponsible breeding of pit bulls simply because irresponsible breeding of pit bulls hurts dogs and communities. So the only solution left is laws, telling them that they HAVE to stop breeding pit bulls or they will be punished. Not everybody will obey such a law, but many people DO obey the law., either because they are law abiding people, or because they don't want to get punished. Are you filing your taxes this year? Why, if the law requiring you to do so is meaningless?
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-07 03:32:40Brent, In many, many cities, the vast majority of dog calls that animal control gets involve pit bulls. In NYC, 40% of the dogs picked up and fully 80% of the dogs killed are pit bulls and pit bull mixes. Every single one of these dogs takes away animal control resources because each one has to be chased, caught, processed, cared for, killed and the body disposed of. Addressing the pit bull problem in a meaningful way (with mandatory spay/neuter of non-show dog pit bulls) cuts back on the numbers of these dogs, and therefore frees up Animal Control time to do other things. You will not see this improvement absolutely immediately (because, initially, there may even be a spike in pit bull mistreatment and dumping because people who only owned pit bulls for profit will no longer want them), but as shelters become true shelters, rather than just pit bull killing factories, the improvement will come. By the way, the fact that many urban shelters are pit bull killing factories is NOT the fault of animal control in those cities. They have no control over the irresponsible pit bull breeders, either. The law I propose (mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes, mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) would give animal control people the ability to change their job from being one of killing pit bulls to enforcing laws protecting pit bulls (and communities) from the people who hurt them.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-07 03:45:22Brent, no I don't "know" about serious maulings in terms of breed numbers. Nobody keeps that data, because one person's "serious mauling" is another person's "nip." (Fatalities, on the other hand, are by definition seirous--dead is dead). I extrapolate from the fact that so many more people are killed by pit bulls than by other breeds and by the anectdotal evidence (from the media, mostly) of often well documented serious pit bull attacks. We know that there are a LOT of them. It makes no sense to believe that pit bulls outright KILL a quite a lot of people, but don't seriously injure very many. Again, I would believe as the seriousness of the injuries goes down, the percent likelihood of a pit bull (versus other breed) being involved goes down as well. That is, fatalities and very serious dog attacks are highly likely to involve pit bulls. Far less serious dog attacks are far less likely to involve pit bulls. I believe this not because I have any stats to prove it, but because I have known a lot of dogs and know a lot of snarky herding dogs and nippy terriers, none of whom is a threat to kill anybody, but who certainly could bite under the right circumstances.
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Cygnet1 @ 2009-03-07 04:25:51Brent, When you say that NJ is virtually no-kill, you aren't meaning to imply that there aren't a lot of dogs still being put down in shelters in places like Camden County, are you? And virtually all of these dogs are pit bulls, aren't they? Yes, a lot of folks have gotten the message about spay/neuter. But there is still a BREED SPECIFIC problem with irreponsible pit bull breeders, even in the places where virtually no other adoptable dogs are being killed for being unwanted.
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StopKillingPets @ 2009-03-07 09:04:35Thank you Brent for the information. Learning a lot from your posts. I like the way you lay things out.
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Alicia @ 2009-03-07 14:59:47Denver Dogs Denver politician’s hearts, brains gone ill? End a kind innocent life to take and kill? Now BSL dogs only crime is their breeds. Very ignorant lawmaker’s deeds! End a family’s joy robbed from their heart, Ruining smiles, tearing love a part! Do not destroy me please; I am Man’s Best Friend. Over 1700 lives have come to an end. God made me right, bad owners make me wrong, I’m good! Stop pit prejudice, I am so misunderstood!
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StopKillingPets @ 2009-03-07 15:05:13[quote](Fatalities, on the other hand, are by definition seirous--dead is dead)[/quote] Deaths are tragic but to use the few fatalities by 'pit bulls' or All dogs to claim that there is even a remote problem with "pit bulls' or Dogs in general is ludicrous. Taking a high average of 30 fatalities by all Breeds/types and dividing by the estimated # of dogs .(75 million) and multiplying that by 100 gives you .00004 % That means that 99.99996% of dogs are not a problem. So trying to use fatalities to "prove" dangerousness of certain Breeds of dogs is sheer and utter nonsense and anyone who has reached the grade level where they teach percentages would understand that. And the assertion that 'pit bulls' are a problem because they caused the majority with so few in total is also ludicrous. If there were 4 fatalities one year and 'pit bulls' caused 3. You could state honestly that 'pit bulls' caused 75% of the fatalities that year. That doesn`t make 'pit bulls' more dangerous than other dogs or prove they are dangerous. You can make all the claims you want about the "danger" of these dogs but nothing backs it up.
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@ 2009-03-07 17:05:04"In many, many cities, the vast majority of dog calls that animal control gets involve pit bulls. In NYC, 40% of the dogs picked up and fully 80% of the dogs killed are pit bulls and pit bull mixes. Every single one of these dogs takes away animal control resources because each one has to be chased, caught, processed, cared for, killed and the body disposed of. Addressing the pit bull problem in a meaningful way (with mandatory spay/neuter of non-show dog pit bulls) cuts back on the numbers of these dogs, and therefore frees up Animal Control time to do other things" So tell me, are these pit bulls they're picking up strays? If so, you have a stray dog problem. Are the dogs they're picking up left to roam free by their owners? Are they being neglected? Cruely treated? Abused? Do we think just restricting a certain breed of dog is going to make these owners better owners when they go out and get an American Bulldog instead? The pit bulls aren't getting picked up because the owners are being responsible owners. And until you fix the irresponsible owner issue, you're not going to solve the problem...regardless of what breed they own.
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Brent @ 2009-03-07 17:13:42I'll also ask, how many of the "breed specific problem" of too many pit bulls getting killed in the shelter are actually caused by people like you who think they are helping? ie, would we still have too many pit bulls in shelters if there weren't literally millions of homes that we cannot adopt dogs to because they are banned in their city? Or because a perfectly good dog was taken from a home, because it was banned in that city? Or because a shelter has a policy of not adopting out pit bulls, so all of them get put down? Not to mention the number of people who wouldn't consider adopting one because people keep preaching that there is something wrong with these dogs. There's not. I still think about 2/3 of the problem -- maybe more -- has been created by people like you who insist that there is a breed specific problem and create more laws to create even more of one.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-08 04:01:08Brent, Sorry. The root of the pit bull problem isn't too few pit bull adopters, it is FAR too many pit bulls. These pit bulls don't come from the pit bull fairy, they come from irresponsible pit bull breeders. Pit bulls are NOT good dogs for most people, if only because of typically high levels of dog aggression, high drive and high energy. Trying to make people feel guilty because they don't want that in a dog if they truly DON'T want that in a dog (and most people don't) is a recipe for further tragedy. When an individual pit bull ends up in a shelter, that almost always means that dog has had (at a minimum) an irresponsible breeder and an irresponsible owner already. Most places don't have breed bans (yet). You can't blame the fact that 80% of the dogs killed in NYC shelters are pit bulls and pit bull mixes on "innocent dogs being taken from a family because of a breed ban" since NYC doesn't have breed bans. Nor do NYC shelters have a policy (except a de facto one) of putting down all pit bulls. The fact remains that there is a whole lot more pit bull suffering in places where pit bulls are left to the tender mercies of pit bull owners and breeders than in places that have addressed the pit bull problem with breed specific legislation. That being said, I DON"T want to see dogs seized from families that love them because of breed. That is why I don't support breed bans, even breed bans with grandfather clauses. The law I DO support (mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes and mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) would not result in even ONE pit bull being seized from a loving owner and killed. It would allow EVERY responsible owner to keep his/her pit bull but would put the grossly irresponsible pit bull breeders who are hurting pit bulls and communities out of the business of profiting off of pit bull suffering.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-08 04:18:54Brent (I assume the "stray dog problem" post was yours), Nobody can say with certainy why most individual pit bulls who end up dying in shelters are picked up, The dogs aren't telling and nobody knows who their owners are. They are not frequently reclaimed by loving owners, however, so it is probably more accurate to describe them as "dumps" rather than "strays." This is not surprising. People who initially get dogs on impulse because they are attracted to a dog with a dangerous reputation (and that is lots of pit bull owners) and because of easy availability (because of way, way too many pit bulls being bred by totally irresponsible breeders) aren't likely to keep a dog longterm. Whether the dog slipped out through a hole in the fence or was dumped out of a moving car, nobody is looking too hard for him. And, no, these irresponsible owners will not be able to easily impulse purchase an American bulldog under the law I suggest (mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes and mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) because American bulldogs are in the definition of "pit bull" in most breed specific legislation and that is probably the right thing to do.
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Brent @ 2009-03-08 10:16:37Ok, so then the irresponsible owner that dumped their dog, or let it loose, and didn't look for it gets a Boxer, or a German Shepherd instead. Either way, the dog ended up in the shelter because someone was irresponsible. Enacting a breed-specific law won't change that irresponsibility...it just changes the breed of dog they own - and eventually, let loose. That's not solving the problem, that's just changing it.
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Brent @ 2009-03-08 10:37:08On the NYC thing, if NYC was an island, then you could make the case that yes, none of their problems are the direct result of laws. But they're not an island, and this is all inter-related. Los Angeles has a developing issue with too many Chihuahuas. They have more Chihuahuas and not enogh homes for them. The solution becomes pretty easy, they ship the chihuahuas to other parts of the US where there is a greater demand for the dogs than the supply. This could be an option for NYC, but isn't because there are problems developing elsewhere because we've created laws that eliminate millions of potential homs for these dogs. In Ohio, there are 4.5 million households affected by their statewide BSL. In Denver, there are 250,000 households that are affected. In the Kansas City metro, we have about 250,000 HHs affected. There are 800,000 households in Miami Dade County that are affected. I could got on. Not only are those households not potential homes for adoptions -- but many dogs in those communities are shipped outside of those communities to other places - -creating further backlog. If you figure that there are about 10 million households that are affected in the US due to BSL (I don't know the real number, but given that I just named off 7 million above, that seems close) -- think about if 3% of those homes adopted a pit bull (or were allowed to keep their current one)- that would be an additional 300,000 pit bulls HSUS is currently estimating that about 4-5 million animals are killed in shelters across the US. Aabout half of those are cats. So of the 2.2 million dogs killed in shelters each, let's assume about 40% are pit bulls (that's about average, some areas are a lot higher than that, some a lot lower). So that's 880,000 pit bulls that are killed in shelters, and I just found homes for about 300,000 or so above. Given that all of my numbers are estimates, maybe we could get close to adopting them all out. Maybe not. But so far, history has shown, that the more laws we put in place that are breed specific, the larger of a problem we have created.
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Brent @ 2009-03-08 10:40:19BTW, I'm still dying to know how you expect animal control agencies that you admit do very little proactive enforcement work, but only respond to calls, to enforce the microchipping law -- something that can't even be done based on sight. It's not that I don't think microchipping is a good idea, all my dogs are, but I just don't think there is any way that animal control agencies, which are underfunded and understaffed, can enforce that law. And I'm confident I don't want them wasting resources that should be dealing with stray/loose dogs and cruelty/neglect cases trying to enforce it.
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StopKillingPets @ 2009-03-08 11:25:37Brent are you aware of any Research on microchipping ? I have no problem if it`s voluntary. That`s for owners to decide. I have concerns about injecting something into my dogs even if it`s just under the skin. I`d be worried about some Cancers but I admit I`m not aware if any Research has looked at this. I do realize that collars and tags can be removed or fall off so there is a benefit to microchips but I`m still wary and wouldn`t do it even if it was mandated for all Breeds. I doubt that the criminal element and irresponsible owners even buy tags so I don`t think mandating microchipping would impact them anyway.
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Brent @ 2009-03-08 13:14:07SKP, Yes, there has been some research done in this area. It does appear that there is some causal relationship between microchips cancerous tumors. You can google it and get a host of stories and find out more about it (it's interesting to read the stuff, because everyone has a bias). After talking to my vet, I decided in favor of the micorchip as I felt like the odds of my dog getting lost or stolen (with the increased odds of the dog getting back home with the chip) were greater than the chance of getting cancer from the chip. But yeah, they have been linked to some forms of cancer -- which brings into it the ethical part of mandating something that increases cancer risk. That's one of the issues too about Mandatory Spay/neuter -- juvenile spay/neuter (before one year of age) has been linked to bone development issues that are linked to bone cancer in large-breed dogs. Rottweilers and Great Danes are two of the most affected, but several have been known to show signs. This is why some of these crazy ordinances mandating spay/neuter at 8-12 weeks just kill me...because they aren't taking the best interests of animals into account.
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StopKillingPets @ 2009-03-08 14:02:58It`s interesting that you mention the causal link between MSN to bone development issues and cancer. We had a dog who developed cruciate ligament issues(not a traumatic injury) and the Vet asked what age the dog had been neutered. We thought it was a bizarre question until he explained that cruciate ligament problems have been linked to early neutering and bone development. I think the decision when to neuter pets should be a decision made by an owner in consultation with their Vet.
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Roofy Martineez @ 2009-03-08 21:30:52Cygnet1 is a.k.a. one Betsy Perkins, a woman who obviously has no job, and way too much unproductive time on her hands. EVERYWHERE - and I do mean EVERYWHERE - there is an article with "Pit Bull" in the title, she will pop right up, espousing "her" proposed law. Which, as I and many, many others have pointed out ad neauseum, has been a failed policy at increasing public safety in places where breed-specific mandatory spay/neuter/microchipping has been enacted. WATCH: when hammered repetitively with facts showing that breed-specific s/n/m/etc. is no more effective at increasing public safety than a total ban has been, she will switch gears to the "The Great Breeding Debate"! It's a shame that this poor, lonely woman cannot find gainful employment making positive contributions to society, and therefore spends her lonely days and nights spreading gross misinformation on the internet. Not much better than the dogsbite nutters, is Betsy!
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 05:44:27One big is that such a huge proportion of the people who adopt pit bulls are attracted to dog ownership for all the wrong reasons. A person who is looking for an extension of his manhood or aweapon is very unlikely to get a golden retriever or even a boxer if pit bulls are not easily available. And NO breed is remotely as available as pit bulls. Yes, if pit bull breeding gets more regulated, rottweiler breeders better be on their toes to avoid selling to scum because it is possible (although it hasn't actually happened in Denver or anywhere else) for rottweilers to become the next pit bull if rottie breeders are incredibly irresponsible. But, hey, when they see that pit bull breeders actually suffer a consequence for irresponsibility (have their right to indiscriminately breed dogs highly regulated) the breeders of other "muscle" breeds might get a bit more careful about what they breed and where the puppies go to avoid having their own breed regulated. That, too, is a good thing.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 06:16:29Brent, Even if you were able to "find homes" for ALL the 880,000 pit bulls you estimate are killed in shelters in this country every year (rather than just 300,000 of them that is your estimate) your numbers and your reasoning are both very flawed. First, you are assuming that 3% of Denver (for example) households will adopt an unwanted pit bull PER YEAR. So, assuming a ten year average pit bull lifespan (the life expectancy of most pit bulls is probably FAR less, but we are assuming your adopters are responsible people, I hope) that means that at the end of ten years, 30% of Denver households will own a shelter rescue pit bull? Uh...no. Second, you forget that the places that currently have breed specific legislation enacted that breed specific legislation as a last resort to deal with a problems similar to those in NYC, Omaha, Baltimore, Camden, Los Angeles, and virtually ever other large urban area: That problem is too many irresponsible pit bull breeders breeding too many pit bulls. As soon as you eliminate the breed specific legislation, (without enacting breeding regulations, which is exactly what I propose), pit bull breeders in Denver starts CONTRIBUTING to the nationwide problem, and making it worse rather than being the little island where you can dump 300,000 pit bulls that you envision. (Now if you could only find homes for more than half a million more of them--can we send them to your house?).
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 06:33:30Brent, You ask about enforcement of the microchipping requirement. It probably woudn't be enforced 100%. The reason I put a microchipping requirement in the law is that it makes it much easier to keep track of which dogs are neutered/spayed and much, much harder for pit bull breeders to skirt the law by switching dog identities and whatnot. So, although microchipping has huge benefits for individual pit bull owners and pit bulls, the fact that some pit bulls are unmicrochipped wouldn't present a big problem with enforcement of the law. If they are (fortuitously) discovered to be unmicrochipped, their owners would be subject to penalties, but such dogs would likely not be spayed/neutered, either so their owners would already be subjected to penalties.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 06:43:40Roofy, You say that mandatory spay/neuter/ microchippping of pit bulls has "failed"where it has been enacted. Exactly where has a law requring the microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes and the mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs been enacted and "failed?" How did it "fail" in your estimation? The reality is that pit bulls present a disproportionate dangerousness problem. They also presnt a hugely disproportionate problem in terms of canine suffering. The cause of both these problems is the same: Totally irresponsible pit bull breeders. Until these problems are adequately addressed, the pit bull crisis is going to continue to get worse and worse most places. It isn't getting worse in Denver, because of the total breed ban that is in place there. I don't happen to think that breed BANS are the way to address this breed specific problem, but there is no doubt that breed specific breeding regulations are necessary. .
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 06:51:52The notion that spay/neuter should "be left to individual dog owners and their vets" kind of puts a crimp into Brent's plan that all the unwanted pit bulls in Los Angeles should be shipped to Denver, doesn't it? Are you going to ship and adopt out all these pit bulls intact and leave the decision as to when and if to spay/neuter them to adopters and their vets? Uh...no. Every responsible shelter mandates that the dogs adopted from it be spayed/neutered. So much for leaving the decision to the owner and the vet. If you are okay with mandating spay/neuter for shelter dogs, why not for dogs bred by irresponsible breeders?
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StopKillingPets @ 2009-03-09 10:42:02[quote]I think the decision when to neuter pets should be a decision made by an owner in consultation with their Vet[/quote] The Conversation was about juvenile neutering and the health consequences but you`re not on here to learn anything you`re just repeating a mantra. Roofy is right. You post everywhere with the same nonsense switching gears to Breeding when people prove to you that dogs aren`t dangerous. [quote][quote](Fatalities, on the other hand, are by definition seirous--dead is dead)[/quote] Deaths are tragic but to use the few fatalities by 'pit bulls' or All dogs to claim that there is even a remote problem with "pit bulls' or Dogs in general is ludicrous. Taking a high average of 30 fatalities by all Breeds/types and dividing by the estimated # of dogs .(75 million) and multiplying that by 100 gives you .00004 % That means that 99.99996% of dogs are not a problem. So trying to use fatalities to "prove" dangerousness of certain Breeds of dogs is sheer and utter nonsense and anyone who has reached the grade level where they teach percentages would understand that. And the assertion that 'pit bulls' are a problem because they caused the majority with so few in total is also ludicrous. If there were 4 fatalities one year and 'pit bulls' caused 3. You could state honestly that 'pit bulls' caused 75% of the fatalities that year. That doesn`t make 'pit bulls' more dangerous than other dogs or prove they are dangerous. You can make all the claims you want about the "danger" of these dogs but nothing backs it up. [/quote] People reading Brent`s posts will actually learn something.
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Roofy Martineez @ 2009-03-09 16:36:10[quote]"Roofy, Exactly where has a law requring the microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes and the mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs been enacted and "failed?" [quote] Gee Bets, for about the thousandth time, San Francisco enacted such legislation fairly recently, yet their number of reported bites went UP in the following year!! So, if MORE people, or even the same number of people are being bitten/attacked, I hardly consider such a law to be a "success"! Now, of course, you will come up with more completely ludicrous reasons why SF's breed-specific spay/neuter/microchipping law failed to increase public safety one whit, but the FACT remains that bite numbers INCREASED. And the FACT remains that in places with breed specific regulations or bans which have been in place for several years, bites/attacks/deaths have not decreased! And before anyone gets suckered into Betsy/Cygnet's Great Breeding Debate, remember that it is a red herring to distract you from the fact that she is dead wrong in asserting that breed-specific s/n/m/etc. will increase public safety. Don't fall for it! She will natter on ceaselessly about hip checks and other meaningless factoids/opinions, when the truth is, hip tests haven't a single thing to do with public safety! So, it's not really public safety that you are actually concerned with, is it old girl? And gee, Bets, if you are really SO concerned about canine suffering and irresponsible breeding, you should stop expecting an exemption for "show dogs", since anybody with an iota of common sense knows that "show dogs" are some of the most singularly inbred mutant freaks in the world!! Of course, you wouldn't want the profit margins of yor AKC dog show buddies to be affected, now would you? Well, maybe you and your AKC dog show buddies can do something about the irresponsible breeding practices and canine suffering at all the pupppy mills? No? Oh, that's right, too much $$$$$$ for the AKC in puppy mills! So, it's not REALLY canine suffering you care about either, is it, dear? Doesn't matter, really, since breed-specific regulations have failed to reduce bites/attacks/deaths anywhere they have been enacted. That's just a fact. The AVMA, CDC, ASPCA, Betsy's beloved AKC, and every single reputable animal organization all oppose breed-specific regulations and bans. Why? BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WORK! And that's just a fact, as well! And truly, Betsy can spend every waking moment of her obviously lonely and unfulfilling life responding to every Goggle alert she gets, clucking endlessly on about "her" proposal, but the fact is, she's just a regular person answering on a message board, and has no authority whatsoever to enact any sort of legislation. She obviously has PLENTY of free time on her hands, judging by how many message/comment boards she is on at all hours of the day, EVERY day. Mayhap all that wasted energy could be put to use in some positive way with a little volunteer work somewhere? [quote]"The reality is that pit bulls present a disproportionate dangerousness problem"[qoute] You know, Betsy, I find it absolutely astonishing that the mighty CDC itself, despite all of it's vast resources and access to information, has admitted the futility of tracking dog bites/attacks/deaths by breed, and has not even attempted to do so since it's failed study concluded in 1998. Yet you would have people believe that YOU, a lone private citizen, armed with nothing more than a computer and some media reports, have managed to accomplish this Herculean task! You must really think that most people are just gullible rubes, willing to drink your Kool-Aid.....
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 19:38:36StopKillingPets, Why do you harp on how few people are killed by dogs? If a law will prevent even ONE child being mauled to death by a dog, and if that law doesn't even hurt one responsible pit bull owner and, in fact, HELPS pit bulls (greatly), why would anybody be against it? The law I propose (mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes, mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) absolutely foreseeably will save the lives of some children and some adults every single year. It would not prevent all serious dog maulings, or even all deaths, but it would provent some by regulating the irresponsible breeding of a breed of dog that has been demonstrated beyond all doubt to be disproportionately dangerous.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 19:49:29The pit bull lobby loves to have it both ways. If folks looking at the dangerous dog problem look at reports of bites (as has researcher Merritt Clifton) the pit bull lobby doesn't like the results (which, predictably, show a high proportion of reported, serious bites are caused by pit bulls). The pit bull lobby whines that that is totally unfair because there isn't good data about the breeds involved and the media has some (unexplained) vendetta against pit bulls that cause them to lie about the kinds of dog biting. On the other hand, dog bite FATALITES are always well investigated by people (homicide detectives) who are paid to get their facts right. So rather than argue (so much, although they still try it) that the dog doing the killing was really a labrador misidentified as a pit bull, the pit bull lobby generally says "fatal dog attacks aren't a problem because they are so rare." It is true that dog attacks that result in death are rare, but dog attacks are actually quite common and are a leading cause of emergency room visits. One half of all children have been bitten by a dog before the age of 12. And, as was discussed above, since part of the solution (note: not the whole solution but PART of the solution) to this problem can occur in a way that HELPS dogs and responsible dog owners, (mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes, mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) it is a win for everybody. except the irresponsible pit bull breeders who are currently profiting off pit bull suffering.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 19:56:13Again, Roofy, the number of REPORTED bites increased in San Francisco following an extremely well publicized case of a pit bull mauling a 12 year old boy to death. The debate about how this tragedy could have been avoided included much discussion of how important it is to report all dog bites, including minor ones. Part of the response to this tragedy was the passage of SF's well received mandatory spay/neuter plan for pit bulls. This ALSO generated continuing debate, and people continued to be educated about the need to report dog bites. So, SF residents reported more dog bites in the wake of lots and lots of discussion about the need to do so. You find that surprising?
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 20:06:07Roofy is right that whether or not pit bull breeders screen breeding dogs for hip dysplasia before breeding them has nothing directly to do with public safety. What it DOES indicate, however, is whether a particular pit bull breeder has ANY CLAIM AT ALL to being responsible. Responsible pit bull breeders OFA hips. They also do a whole lot of other things,(and a breeder can OFA hips but still not be responsible) but if they don't OFA hips, they aren't responsible. Now, at the rate that pit bulls are being slaughtered in shelters all across the country because of the irresponsible overbreeding by totally irresponsible pit bull breeders, any person who truly cares about pit bulls wants to stop ANY irresponsible pit bull breeding. One way to do that is to force people who are breeding dogs without health screens to stop breeding pit bulls. One way to accomplish THAT is to look at who the responsible breeders who do health screens are. There are quite a few pit bull breeders who health screen who register with AKC. There are fewer, but still some, who register their dogs with UKC. THere are almost NO pit bull breeders who do ANY health screens at all who register their dogs solely with any other registry or don't register them at all. Hence, if you pass a law requiring the spay/neuter of all pit bulls except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs, you aren't hurting any responsible pit bull breeders.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 20:06:07Roofy is right that whether or not pit bull breeders screen breeding dogs for hip dysplasia before breeding them has nothing directly to do with public safety. What it DOES indicate, however, is whether a particular pit bull breeder has ANY CLAIM AT ALL to being responsible. Responsible pit bull breeders OFA hips. They also do a whole lot of other things,(and a breeder can OFA hips but still not be responsible) but if they don't OFA hips, they aren't responsible. Now, at the rate that pit bulls are being slaughtered in shelters all across the country because of the irresponsible overbreeding by totally irresponsible pit bull breeders, any person who truly cares about pit bulls wants to stop ANY irresponsible pit bull breeding. One way to do that is to force people who are breeding dogs without health screens to stop breeding pit bulls. One way to accomplish THAT is to look at who the responsible breeders who do health screens are. There are quite a few pit bull breeders who health screen who register with AKC. There are fewer, but still some, who register their dogs with UKC. THere are almost NO pit bull breeders who do ANY health screens at all who register their dogs solely with any other registry or don't register them at all. Hence, if you pass a law requiring the spay/neuter of all pit bulls except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs, you aren't hurting any responsible pit bull breeders.
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StopKillingPets @ 2009-03-09 20:14:22I`m not one of the gullible rubes cygnet. Save it for someone that is,if you can find anyone.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-09 21:31:23Why would anybody be surprised by the fact that pit bulls are disproportionately dangerous? There are two major factors that contribute to genetic canine dangerousness. The first is that the breeder is irresponsible. There are FAR more irresponsible pit bull breeders in this country than breeders of any other breed, as is demonstrated by the fact (acknowledged by Brent) that at least 40% of dogs in shelters in this country are pit bulls. Virtually all of them came from totally irresponsible breeders. Of course, there are irresponsible lab breeders adn collie breeders, too. Not as many as pit bull breeders, granted, but quite a few. But, try as you might, I think you would be hard pressed to find even a single lab breeder or a collie breeder who was breeding FOR dangerous temperaments, and marketing the dogs s/he breeds as canine weapons. Unfortunately, MANY pit bull breeders breed precisely for dangerousness-either to other dogs (commonly) to people (less commonly, but still frequently enough to cause lots of problems) or both. I don't know if StopKillingPets thinks that somehow all this horribly irresponsible pit bull breeding and breeding for dangerousness would NOT produce a dog who was (on average, there are certainly exceptions) disproportionately dangerous, but if s/he DOES believe that, alas, s/he is quite gullible. (Maybe not a rube, however...I don't know about that part).
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-10 06:11:56The AVMA Journal published an article that notes: "Despite these limitations and concerns, the data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF [dog bite related fatalities] in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that period and, thus, there appears to be a breed specific problem with fatalities." This article and this statement was, um, vetted through the normal peer review process of the AVMA journal and found to be scientifically sound. However, the AVMA doesn't WANT to support breed specific legislation because there are lots of AVMA clients who own pit bulls and they don't want to offend them. Perhaps they didn't realize, when they published this scientifically accurate study, just how easily many pit bull owners are offended by facts. Plus, they are against breed BANS for good reason (they take responsibly owned dogs away from their owners and kill them). So they backtrack and waffle and say that what they said before was accurate, and accurately described a situation that is causing children to die, but...uh, don't take it seriously.
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Roofy Martineez @ 2009-03-10 13:12:10[quote]"Again, Roofy, the number of REPORTED bites increased in San Francisco following an extremely well publicized case of a pit bull mauling a 12 year old boy to death"] Ah, yes, the lovely and responsible Fabish family, who kept their starving, intact dogs chained in the basement! I am SURE that the Fabish family would have followed the s/n/m/etc. law, had it only been enacted at that time! Lord, lady, what delusional planet DO you come from? Breed-specific regulations work no better than breed specific bans for the exact same reasons, and are nothing more than feel-good legislation that costs valuable taxpayer dollars while doing nothing to increase public safety. Period. Your incessant nattering about breeding is likely due to the fact that you are a card-carrying member of the loony AKC "dog show" crowd, and breeding is really all you know anything about. OR DO YOU? [quote]"There are quite a few pit bull breeders who health screen who register with AKC"[quote] Gee, Bets, seems that would be hard to do, since the AKC doesn't recognize the APBT! I can't believe you actually referenced the "Clifton study" yet again, it's just hilarious how you selectively choose the grossly flawed and biased "research" of one single person, whilst merrily ignoring the word of the CDC and the AVMA. Riiigggghhht!! Or are they also part of the vast Pit Bull Lobby Conspiracy? I love how you STILL try desperately to use snippets from the CDC report completely out of context to make it appear as though the CDC and AVMA agree with your position. Some poor, uneducated simpleton may fall for your ruse, but I have read and comprehended the report in it's entirety, and know better. People like you are absolutely disgusting! Your selective caring is blatant, since time and again, you cry over any victim of a dog attack that siuts your purposes, while marginalizing or negating the suffering of anyone who is injured or dies in an attack by any dog that isn't a Pit Bull type, and does nothing to further your cause. It's as if these people do not even exist! The infants recently killed by dogs do not merit your concern, since you cannot profit from their suffering. Again, if you and your AKC buddies want to do something about irresponsible breeding, why don't you get puppy mills shut down? Why are you folks still producing millions of dogs for sale every year, while my tax dollars pay to euthanize millions of perfectly healthy dogs in shelters every year? Truth be told, you and your AKC breeder buddies are every bit as irresponsible and greedy as the Pit Bull breeders you are crying about. And if breeed-specific laws are such a great idea, and will surely save lives, please explain Denver, Miami, and Ontario having higher than ever dog bite/attack/death numbers, despite a total Pit Bull ban, while surrounding cities enjoy lower numbers than ever. Where is the safety? Where are the saved lives , and the reduced suffering? Why aren't the bans achieving their goals of increased public safety? If banning Pit Bulls hasn't done a single thing to increase safety, how will banning uteri and testicles achieve this goal?
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-10 18:56:00Sorry, but despite the backpeddling of the AVMA now, (because they don't like the conclusions that the facts inevitably lead to, apparently because they are too wimpy to take on the pit bull lobby) they published an article in the AVMA Journal that says that "there appears to be a breed specific problem [that would be rottweilers and pit bulls]with fatalities." They don't deny that that article was good science. They (like the pit bull lobby) just don't like what the facts show. In fact, although we DON'T know the numbers of every breed, the original article specifically notes that and notes that DESPITE the "limitations and concerns" (including that one) that "the data indicate that rottweilers and pit bull type dogs accounted for 67% of DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of the dogs in the United States during that period." It is particularly annoying that they publish an article that makes a pretty specific (and well founded) finding of a "breed specific problem" and then blame "the media" for concluding that, hey, there is a breed specific problem. How wimpy can the AVMA get?
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Roofy Martineez @ 2009-03-10 19:00:20[qoute]The AVMA Journal published an article that notes: "Despite these limitations and concerns, the data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF [dog bite related fatalities] in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that period and, thus, there appears to be a breed specific problem with fatalities." This article and this statement was, um, vetted through the normal peer review process of the AVMA journal and found to be scientifically sound[qoute] Um, no, you have obviously taken this qoute from, um, either the dogsbite.org nutter's website, or the ambulance-chasing lawyer's dogbitelaw.com website. IT IS NOT FROM THE JOURNAL OF THE AVMA, it is a cut and paste snippet of a portion of the oft-misquoted CDC report, used out of context without the accompaniment of the REST of the CDC report. See, Bets, when you use poor source material against someone who has actually read and comprehended the ENTIRE CDC report, it's a good deal harder to get people such as I to drink your Kool-Aid. Next time you want to make yourself sound, um, credible, you should, um, use some sort of vetting process for your sources of, um, information to assure that they are, um, you know, um, scientifically sound!! SO, let's follow up your misqouted snippet with the rest of the story, shall we?
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-10 19:03:02In his post above, Roofy illustrates the tactic used most successfully on the pompously-named "National Canine Research Council" website. That is, they don't actually LIE about what is going on with pit bull fatalities, but they always look for a factor other than the breed to blame it on. Thus, Roofy, points out that the Faibish family was horribly irresponsible. Yes, they were. But plenty of beagle owners and standard poodle owners are horribly irresponsible and beagles standard poodles and typically don't kill 12 year old children. The reason that this tactic works so well to distract people with short attention spans from the truth that there is a BREED SPECIFIC problem with dog dangerousness is that there are nearly always multiple reasons why a specific seriour or fatal dog tragedy occurs. No, the child wouldn't have died in the absence of irresponsible parents, but the child ALSO wouldn't have died if the irresponsible parents had chosen a golden retriever, rather than a pit bull. If you want to cut down as much as possible on serious and fatal dog attacks, you look at ALL the factors that are statistically significant. And breed, alas for Roofy, is one of the THE most significant predictors of dog attacks on children (see "which dogs bite, a case control study" by Gershman, Sacks, et al.).
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-10 19:05:51Roofy illustrates the tactic of spinning again in his "why don't you shut down puppy mills" comment. I guess Roofy would be surprised to learn that it is possible to be against puppy mills (and to support laws aimed at closing them) and ALSO to be against irresponsible pit bull breeders (and to support laws aimed at putting them out of business.).
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Roofy Martineez @ 2009-03-10 19:06:59THE REST OF THE STORY, FROM THE ACTUAL CDC REPORT: Despite these limitations and concerns, the data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF [dog bite related fatalities] in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that period and, thus, there appears to be a breed specific problem with fatalities. Although the fatality data are concerning, one must broaden the context to consider both fatal and nonfatal bites when deciding on a course of action. Nonfatal dog bites continue to be a public health problem in the United States. Although this and prior reports1-3 document more than 330 DBRF during a 20-year period, these tragedies represent only the most severe manifestation of the problem. In 1986, nonfatal dog bites resulted in an estimated 585,000 injuries that required medical attention or restricted activity.8 By 1994, an estimated 4.7 million people (1.8% of the US population) sustained a dog bite; of these, approximately 800,000 (0.3% of the US population) sought medical care for the bite (332,000 in emergency departments), and 6,000 were hospitalized.9-11 This 36% increase in medically attended bites from 1986 to 1994 draws attention to the need for an effective response, including dog bite prevention programs. Because (1) fatal bites constitute less than 0.00001% of all dog bites annually, (2) fatal bites have remained relatively constant over time, whereas nonfatal bites have been increasing, and (3) fatal bites are rare at the usual political level where bite regulations are promulgated and enforced, we believe that fatal bites should not be the primary factor driving public policy regarding dog bite prevention. Several interacting factors affect a dog’s propensity to bite, including heredity, sex, early experience, socialization and training, health (medical and behavioral), reproductive status, quality of ownership and supervision, and victim behavior. For example, a study in Denver of medically-attended dog bites in 1991 suggested that male dogs are 6.2 times more likely to bite than female dogs, sexually intact dogs are 2.6 times more likely to bite than neutered dogs, and chained dogs are 2.8 times more likely to bite than unchained dogs.12 Communities have tried to address the dog bite problem by focusing on different factors related to biting behavior. To decrease the risk of dog bites, several communities have enacted breed-specific restrictions or bans. In general, these have focused on pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers. However, breeds responsible for human DBRF have varied over time. Pinckney and Kennedy13 studied human DBRF from May 1975 through April 1980 and listed the following breeds as responsible for the indicated number of deaths: German Shepherd Dog (n = 16); Husky-type dog (9); Saint Bernard (8); Bull Terrier (6); Great Dane (6); Malamute (5); Golden Retriever (3); Boxer (2); Dachshund (2); Doberman Pinscher (2); Collie (2); Rottweiler (1); Basenji (1); Chow Chow (1); Labrador Retriever (1); Yorkshire Terrier (1); and mixed and unknown breed (15). As ascertained from our data, between 1979 and 1980, Great Danes caused the most reported human DBRF; between 1997 and 1998, Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs were responsible for about 60% of human DBRF. Indeed, since 1975, dogs belonging to more than 30 breeds have been responsible for fatal attacks on people, including Dachshunds, a Yorkshire Terrier, and a Labrador Retriever. In addition to issues surrounding which breeds to regulate, breed-specific ordinances raise several practical issues. For optimal enforcement, there would need to be an objective method of determining the breed of a particular dog. Pedigree analysis (a potentially timeconsuming and complicated effort) combined with DNA testing (also time-consuming and expensive) is the closest to an objective standard for conclusively identifying a dog’s breed. Owners of mixed-breed or unregistered (ie, by a kennel club) dogs have no way of knowing whether their dog is one of the types identified and whether they are required to comply with breed-specific ordinances. Thus, law enforcement personnel have few means for positively determining a dog’s breed and deciding whether owners are in compliance or violation of laws. Some municipalities have attempted to address this classification issue of unregistered and mixedbreed dogs by including within their ordinances a description of the breed at which the ordinance is directed. Unfortunately, such descriptions are usually vague, rely on subjective visual observation, and result in many more dogs than those of the specified breed being subject to the restrictions of the ordinance. When a specific breed of dog has been selected for stringent control, 2 constitutional questions concerning dog owners’ fourteenth amendment rights have been raised: first, because all types of dogs may inflict injury to people and property, ordinances addressing only 1 breed of dog are argued to be underinclusive and, therefore, violate owners’ equal protection rights; and second, because identification of a dog’s breed with the certainty necessary to impose sanctions on the dog’s owner is prohibitively difficult, such ordinances have been argued as unconstitutionally vague, and, therefore, violate due process. Despite such concerns, a number of breed-specific ordinances have been upheld by the courts.14-16 Another concern is that a ban on a specific breed might cause people who want a dangerous dog to simply turn to another breed for the same qualities they sought in the original dog (eg, large size, aggression easily fostered). Breed-specific legislation does not address the fact that a dog of any breed can become dangerous when bred or trained to be aggressive. From a scientific point of view, we are unaware of any formal 840 Vet Med Today: Special Report JAVMA, Vol 217, No. 6, September 15, 2000 evaluation of the effectiveness of breed-specific legislation in preventing fatal or nonfatal dog bites. An alternative to breed-specific legislation is to regulate individual dogs and owners on the basis of their behavior. Although, it is not systematically reported, our reading of the fatal bite reports indicates that problem behaviors (of dogs and owners) have preceded attacks in a great many cases and should be sufficient evidence for preemptive action. Approaches to decreasing dangerous dog and owner behaviors are numerous. The potential importance of strong animal control programs is illustrated by our data; from 1979 through 1998, 24% of human DBRF were caused by owned dogs (typically more than 1) that were roaming off the owners’ property. Some deaths might have been averted through more stringent animal control laws and enforcement (eg, leash laws, fencing requirements). Although the bite prevention effectiveness of such animal control ordinances and programs has not been systematically evaluated, freeroaming dogs and dogs with menacing behavior are problems that need to be addressed even if they do not bite (eg, causing bicycle or car crashes). Generic non–breed-specific, dangerous dog laws can be enacted that place primary responsibility for a dog’s behavior on the owner, regardless of the dog’s breed.17 In particular, targeting chronically irresponsible dog owners may be effective.18 If dog owners are required to assume legal liability for the behavior and actions of their pets, they may be encouraged to seek professional help in training and socializing their pets. Other options include enforcing leash laws and laws against dog fighting. We noticed in the fatal cases, that less than one half of 1% of DBRF were caused by leashed animals off the owners’ property. Subdivisions and municipalities that outlaw fences or limit fences to heights insufficient for controlling large dogs may be increasing the probability of children interacting with unsupervised dogs. Scientific evaluations of the effects of such regulations are important. Education of dog owners can address several issues: (1) understanding breed profiles19,20 may assist owners in selecting the appropriate dog for their lifestyle and training abilities, (2) convincing owners to seriously consider the sex and reproductive status of their dogs is important because male and sexually intact dogs are more likely to bite than are female and neutered dogs,12 and (3) teaching owners about the importance of socialization and training may decrease their likelihood of owning a dog that will eventually bite. Veterinarians play a key role in educating pet owners, but because many dogs that bite may not be seen by a veterinarian prior to the bite incident, programs that encourage responsible ownership must also be presented through other venues. Public education strategies should include school-based and adult educational programs addressing bite prevention and basic canine behavior, care, and management. Programs should strive to ensure that dogs receive proper socialization, exercise, and attention; that they are given adequate food, water, shelter, and veterinary care; that they are neutered if they are not maintained for legitimate and responsible breeding purposes; and that they are trained humanely and confined safely. However, like breed-specific legislation, all these approaches appear formally unevaluated for effectiveness. Targeting and evaluation of prevention efforts requires improved surveillance for fatal and nonfatal dog bites. Dog bites should be reported as required by local or state ordinances, and reports of such incidents should include information about the circumstances of the bite, ownership, breed, sex, reproductive status of the dog, history of prior aggression, and the nature of restraint prior to the bite incident. Collection of data on the entire dog population (eg, breed, age, sex) would help resolve comparative risk issues and may be accomplished by combining paperwork on mandatory rabies immunizations with registration of breed and sex. Only with numerator and denominator data and with formal evaluations of the impacts of strategies tried by various communities will we be able to make science-based recommendations for decreasing the number of dog bites. In the interim, adequate funding for animal control agencies, enforcement of existing animal control laws, and educational and policy strategies to reduce inappropriate dog and owner behaviors will likely result in benefits to communities and may well decrease the number of dog bites that occur
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-10 19:09:47Re Roofy's comment that the AKC doesn't recognize pit bulls, AKC pit bulls are American staffordshire terriers. Some would argue that AKC staffordshire bull terriers are also pit bulls.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-10 19:26:35Roofy, You can stop desperately trying to prove that the AVMA does not support breed specific legislation. YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THAT. The problem is that the AVMA is wrong on this issue. (They are right on ear cropping and tail docking, but hey, nobody is right all the time...) . But the problems the AVMA has with breed specific legislation are all specific to breed BANS. They are negligible or non-existent when you look at breed specific breeder regulation, such as mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes, and mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs. There is NO DOWNSIDE for responsible owners of pit bulls or for other dog owners of the law I propose. And, in fact, it will alleviate a huge amount of pit bull suffering.
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Roofy Martineez @ 2009-03-10 19:45:20Actually, my POINT with the puppy mill comment and my bringing up recent attacks and deaths was to emphasize the fact that in both cases, you are very selective in your caring for both human and canine suffering. No need to spin what's obvious. The fact that I caught you telling some outright lies just sweetened the pot! You dogsbite.org nutters are all alike! It's just so darn hard for you to accept that in places like Denver, Miami, and Ontario, dog bites/attacks/deaths are at all-time highs, despite complete bans on Pit Bulls, while surrounding areas without breed-specific ordinances are enjoying their lowest rates of people bitten/attacked/killed by dogs. It's just too hard to face the truth, isn't it, Bets? The reason breed-specific s/n/m/etc/.. will work no better than an outright ban is that the people who most need regulating aren't the kind of people who follow regulations in the first place. You are SO obsessed with breeding, I'm starting to think that your real problem is the fact that even unregistered Pit Bull pups are selling for more than your beloved AKC registered "purebred" Labs, if the classified section of my hometown rag is any indicator. Folks like you rely on the propensity of the public to look for the quick and easy answer, so they latch onto the dogsbite and dogbitelaw website paraphrasing select portions of the CDC report, rather than actually reading the entire report for themselves on the CDC website. Gee, if I hadn't read the entire report, I wouldn't have known that your statement regarding the Journal of the AVMA was an outright lie. If I was uneducated, I also wouldn't know that the AKC doesn't recognize the APBT, so your statement that responsible Pit Bull breeders register with the AKC was also a lie. Or maybe just, um, ignorance. With spring coming, and the people in my neighborhood starting to spend more time outdoors, the probability of unpleasant dog & human encounters will rise. I will be distributing dog bite prevention education flyers, printed at my own expense, to all the homes in my neighborhood, local businesses, churches, and the media. I not only list many safety tips, but provide information for my favorite website, doggonesafe.com, which has many great educational tips presented in formats that even very young children can easily understand. I want to prevent dog bites/attacks/deaths by ALL breeds, and this is one way to help. Tell me Bets, what will YOU do to try and make your community a safer place? Continue to waste time blathering on incessantly on the internet? Perhaps, if the last three parents of children killed by dogs had only known what a terrible idea it is to leave infants and children unattended with dogs, three innocent lives could have been saved. The fact that even a diminutive Jack Russel Terrier has killed a child should emphasize to parents that breed and size are NOT indicators of safety! I am determined to do my part, but since breed-specific regulations have failed to increase public safety anywhere they have been enacted, I will not support such useless legislation. A child killed by ANY dog is just as dead as a child killed by a Pit Bull, the big difference between you and I is that I care about BOTH victims.
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Kita @ 2009-03-11 02:57:57BSL was the worst idea anyone has ever come up with, there should be some kind of DMV and breed specific classes to own certain dogs, too many idiots want dogs just to say they have one.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-11 05:58:08Roofy, EVERYBDDY who advances reform in any aspect of life is "selective" in their caring. Do you criticize MADD because they aren't lobbying for increased enforcement of child restraint laws and therefore (according to your strange way of thinking) must not care about the children who die because they weren't in car seats? I've done my homework on the pit bull crisis and I know what I am talking about. The law I propose (mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes and mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) will save some childrens' lives every year and will alleviate huge amounts of pit bull suffering. I know you desperately want to change the subject to other reasons children die or other reasons animals suffer, but the reason we are talking about HERE Is the pit bull crisis.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-11 06:06:29Again, Roofy, the AKC recognizes the American Staffordshire terrier, which is a pit bull. It also recognizes the staffordshire bull terrier, which many people believe is a pit bull. All responsible pit bull breeders OFA hips on dogs before breeding them. The VAST majority of pit bull breeders who OFA (health screen) their dogs register them with the AKC. A smaller group of pit bull breeders who health screen register their dogs (as American Pit Bull Terriers) with the UKC. Virtually no ADBA pit bull breeders and almost no pit bull breeders who don't register their dogs do the health screening required of responsible breeders of pit bulls. Thus we KNOW that these people are not responsible and that the law I propose (mandatory microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes, mandatory spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs) will not negatively affect a single responsible pit bull owner or breeder but will put literally thousands and thousands of grossly irresponsible pit bull breeder (the ones breeding the dogs who are glutting shelters and making headlines) out of business.
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-11 06:08:48Hey, Roofy, do YOU think that there are too many pit bulls being bred (except in places like Denver, where all pit bulls are killed)? If so, what is YOUR solution to the pit bull crisis?
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-12 06:52:03If tourists are going to boycott cities for killing pit bulls, they should start with NYC (where 80% of the dogs killed are pit bulls and pit bull mixes) or Los Angeles (where Karen Delise says 120 pit bulls are killed PER DAY in LA area shelters). Of course, the blame for all these pit bull deaths falls squarely on the pit bull community, (which not only tolerates but protects irresponsible pit bull breeders, profiting off the suffering of unwanted pit bull) so the pit bull community doesn't really want to talk much about that. Because if they talk about what is hurting and killing MOST pit bulls in this country (that would be irresponsible pit bull breeding) somebody might ask them what the solution is. And they don't like the only solution that makes sense: breed specific restrictions on breeding pit bulls.
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No on BSL! @ 2009-03-14 03:50:33BSL is not the answer. Stricter laws regarding irresponsible or abusive dog owners is the answer. How many people die from alcohol and tobacco products compared to dog bites a year? You ban a dog breed but compare the numbers!
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cygnet1 @ 2009-03-16 06:34:32Breed BANS are not the answer. The answer is strict, breed specific legislation governing breeding of pit bulls. This is the only way to protect both pit bulls and their victims from the horrifically irresponsible pit bull breeding community, which continues to overbreed pit bulls, who glut shelters, fill shelter freezers and occasionally kill children.
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Marina @ 2009-03-19 12:42:20Cygnet, please! Denver has had an ordinance on the books for a long time that all dogs must be spayed/neutered. ALL dogs. So, why would Denver need a separate strict breed specific law governeing breeding of pit bulls? Also, you mention that other cities kill more pit bulls in their shelters. Yes, 'tis true. But that's another thing entirely. The difference being that Denver is killing good, well trained, well cared for, family dogs. These dogs are owned and have a home, but the city is coming in, taking them and killing them for no reason. That is so not cool.
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pork chop @ 2009-03-25 02:27:21LOL... Hey Luke.. i hope you are prepred to move from the Miami Dade area.. Guess what.. they just recinded their "pit bull" ban...LOLOL.. hope your home is worth more than you paid.. if not you can always move in wiith Kory.. as for cygnet 1.. give it up.. she/he LOVES to post on this subject.. he/she is everywhere... spouting "old news" and lies... dogsbite.org is a misnomer.. there is nothing "org' about it.. now if it were dogbites.lies... that might be better. and certainly more truthful. I dislike the HSUS.. but to say that they are given donations by "dogfighters""because of "pit bulls" really now.. what are YOU smoking lillte kory? The HSUS calls for the KILLING of any "pit bull" found in a dog fight bust.. and yet.. Vicks dogs are doing .. JUST FINE thanks ..hey kory.. and others.. did you know one of Vicks dogs is a therapy dog now.. hey Luke.. the dog goes to HOSPITALS.. wiith CHILDREN in them...thanks to all for your excellent research and just say NO to BSL.. and anti dog law.. and to kory nelson..and ,dog it, Beasty.. get a real job....
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Danny @ 2009-04-13 09:55:01Klicket is a 10year old staffie I raised from a pup. He's my friend and most cherised companion. He is a red cross certified therapy dog and hold good citizens certificates from 3 different states. He has never harmed or even been placed in a position to harm. I am a responsible owner and yes I love the old beast. Now tell me again, why do you want Klicker dead?
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Sherry Suib-Cohen @ 2009-10-28 14:25:01BSL=Nazi racial laws of Nuremberg 1936
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DMoney @ 2009-11-06 16:43:27Pork Chop is right, about Pit Bulls and the AKC. AKC used one of Colby's Dogs, "Primo" as its standard for the American Staffordshire Terrier. The name was changed to get away from the negative connotations associated with the Pit Bull Terrier name. For a time, Pit Bulls could also be registered as AmStaffs, but the AKC Eventually closed their stud books to pitbulls, so only dogs born from two registered Amstaffs, could be registered as such. The stud books opened back up to APBTs for one year, I believe in the sixties, then closed them again. FACT: AKC AmStaffs can be dual registered with the UKC as APBTs. UKC APBTs cannot be registered with the AKC, unless they are the progeny of two AKC registered AmStaffs. The UKC does not recognize the AmStaff as a breed separate from the APBT. The AKC does not recognize the APBT at all. The breeds are more or less the same with emphasis put on different qualities, and with the registered AmStaffs having a smaller gene pool.I would also like to add, that a dog being PR does not mean the dog has been bred well. PR just means it has seven generations of registered dogs behind it. A dog being PR just means that people were registering dogs, then breeding them, not breeding them well.
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Fayclis @ 2010-03-01 09:40:19One can sure tell WHO the dogsbites people are. This BSL Lobby group is the Kory Nelson FAN CLUB. BSL is FAILING EVERYWHERE and NOW the UK is rethinking and reviewing its ban from the 1991 Dangerous Dog Act. Their dog attacks are NOW through the roof! INDIVIDUAL OWNER ACCOUNTABLITY is the ONLY just way to insure public safety as DENVER is also once again PROVING.
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Social Mange @ 2010-03-01 20:56:36I see that neither the City of Denver nor Mr. Nelson addressed the boxer attack that occurred.
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Social Mange @ 2010-03-01 20:59:32...you keep trying to discredit the anti-BSL movement and fail miserably. If you think dog fighters would ever give one cent, give yourself a shake. Those scum will just change breeds and keep fighting dogs. By the way, how much have the court battles cost City of Denver taxpayers? Is fighting to kill an unoffending dog a good use of taxpayers' hard-earned dollars? I think not.
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Social Mange @ 2010-03-01 21:03:12This is a good article, congratulations to Mr. Marcus and the Denver Daily News. I'm particularly happy to see that Denver city administrators have to talk out of both sides of their mouths to try to justify killing dogs that have done nothing wrong. Obviously, the ban doesn't work; if there were any viable statistics, Korey Nelson would be hopping all over them rather than repeating urban myths.
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Social Mange @ 2010-03-01 21:10:46Parent, I apologize to you for the loose-wire fanatic(s) on this board. Your comment is exactly what I've tried to hammer into people; those who suffer from attacks by dogs of other breeds are entitled to the same sympathy. Their pain and trauma are no less because the attacking dog was not a "pit bull".
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Social Mange @ 2010-03-01 21:15:33Luke and cygnet1 need their meds and a nice nap. In restraints.
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